Advice needed to create meadow

[hannahv]

Hello, I’m based in North Wales but don’t have any local groups so I hope it’s ok to join you. I’ve been watching the forum a while and it’s been really useful and interesting.

I have 4.5 acres of very windy, exposed rough grazing at 235m above sea level. It’s split into two fields and grazed by horses.

My problem is that it’s overrun with buttercups, creeping thistle, docks, nettles and hogweed. I don’t want to get rid of it all, but two years of hand pulling and spot spraying with triclopyr (the kindest weed killer I could find) isn’t working. So I have a few questions and would appreciate any advice...

1) in the interests of long-term biodiversity gains, would you spray the field to remove non-grass plants prior to over seeding? (And have I now left it too late to spray before overseeing this autumn?)

2) I want to be able to make hay and graze animals (mainly horses and sheep) on the fields. Most of the fields will be left to seed each year as I only graze the perimeter spring-autumn. Are there any plant species to avoid in my seed mix?

3) Can I establish a meadow without yellow rattle? My friend’s field is overrun with it and the horses won’t eat it.

4) How successful (or unsuccessful) am I likely to be if I spread seed then allow the horses to graze the area over winter? I realise some of the heavily poached areas will suffer, but what about other areas? Or should I wait until they’re moved away in spring time to seed?

Thanks so much in advance. Any info gratefully received

[Fourwinds]

Hi I'm new on the forum and looking for advice myself.. but..

For a large area with perennial weeds like yours I'd just blitz it a few times with Gallup XL since it will be a perennial meadow for years to come afterwards. It may take a few applications waiting for seedlings to appear. Yellow rattle is useful just to regular grasses, if your freind wants to limit yellow rattle he could mow the flowers before seed is set since it is only an annual. Your weed problem sounds connected to the horses causing compaction, breaking up roots and selective grazing. When it's weed free I'd eleviate any compaction, level and roll to maintain good soil structure. If it's fertile you can apparently sow a crop of rape seed to lower ferility. Or use a nursery crop of annuals mixed with the perennial mix which can cut and removed. You want your perennials to become established and go to seed to maintain a meadow. I know conservation grazing uses cows fed on wildflower hay to improve meadows over winter, but unsure about horses, though raw horse muck on allotments spreads 'weed' seed so maybe. Though at a guess I'd prevent horses on the field for the first year, give it a hay cut and feed them with that. The following year let them graze and spread the seed with their muck?

All the best!

[hannahv]

Thanks for your thoughts Fourwinds. As an ecologist I wouldn't ever dream of using glyphosate (did you realise that’s what Gallup XL contains?) and am extremely selective about which herbicides I will use. I’ve been very sparingly using triclopyr but that’s not had much of an impact. I’m now thinning out the thistles by hand and I’m scything the docks but they grow back quicker than I can top them!

The problem with the weeds was there before I arrived as the land had been left for many years. In the few spots that have been poached (along the horses’ preferred tracks) the seed bank is replacing the grass but unfortunately it’s mostly docks in the seed bank!

I can’t remove the horses as that’s the primary purpose of having the land, and I don’t agree with stabling for more than a few hours, so I need to work around them to create a meadow. I do harrow without rolling (no point rolling with horses as that compacts the soil more).

Ponies are used for conservation grazing in many areas, including the country park a mile from my home. But they are kept at much lower stocking rates than domestic horses.

The problem with yellow rattle on horse pastures is that most private horse owners (including me) use local farmers to top, harrow etc. and have to work around their schedule, especially hay making, so you can’t be sure that you can top the yellow rattle before it seeds. So it’s not really an option for me unfortunately.

[Jane W]

Hi Hannah
I have a similar size of pasture, and when we arrived here about 5 years ago, there was virtually not a single nettle or dock here.
Since then, male visitors, not being bothered to return to the house for a loo, have 'watered' (trying to be polite here!) certain areas.
I have been amazed at how quickly nettle has colonized these patches, seemingly from nowhere.
Obviously, horses will be passing a great deal of this nitrogen rich 'water' every day, and that will be changing the soil nutrient levels to favour certain wild plants. Their droppings doing something similar, but for different plants. Every time I've seen really stunning buttercup fields in the past, I've noticed they have horses in them...so a definite link there I would say!
I suppose I take a rather fatalistic view of this. If your soil ( its nutrient make up etc) and conditions ( weather, animals etc) favour certain types of wild plants, I can't see that any kind of herbicides will change that.
Its not changing the underlying conditions is it?
Surely the plants really suited to the conditions will eventually come back even if you spray and re-seed?
I have no answers and don't have animals on my land, but what I've done to try and favour biodiversity is to have diversity! Sorry if that sounds daft!
What I mean is that I treat different areas differently. Some have spring flowers so I cut them early, others I cut in august, others not until the end of winter, others not at all. Some I leave cuttings to rot in, others I remove it.
Would it be possible to divide up your fields somehow? I know this isn't easy with livestock, but could it be done?
In this way you could cut some bits early ( with the plants you say you have sounds like you would also have good conditions for lovely spring heroes like dandelion and red clover). If each section was a half acre or so, you could scythe or use mower with cuttings collection, or put the horses in there in April/May. Wouldn't be too big. Keep the horses off one bit to see what happens. Maybe even spray and re-seed one bit to see how you feel about it...
...although I have never used any herbicides on my pastures, only cutting at different times. Its far from perfect, but I couldn't be more thrilled with the biodiversity...its astonishing and getting better every year.
The bulk you could still cut for hay...I'm assuming here that the nettles, docks etc make good hay and there's no problem there?

[Amy]

Hannah
I sent you an email about ten days ago answering some of your questions - I mentioned agricultural contractors, vernalisation, yellow rattle.
.
In addition to what I said there -

I spoke with an organic farmer today - he cuts his docks regularly and sheep grazing helps.

My meadow has regenerated well without yellow rattle. Yellow rattle speeds up the process.

I wouldn't worry about the topping of yellow rattle over much. The point surely, is that the rattle as it grows, parasitises the grasses (and some other plants) weakening them and eventually creating small bare patches. So the rattle will have the desired effect during its growing season from March to whenever you top, or until it seeds, whichever is the sooner; the fact that you may have to reseed the rattle in the autumn, because the topping took place before seeding, is secondary.

I've been told by a well qualified and experienced farmer friend that knapweed heats up hay. That might rule out the normal seed mixes, though you can buy individual species. I suggest you ask your local farm sales outlet or a neighbouring farmer for further advice. Perhaps someone here will comment further.

See Sue Everett's article on the Moor Meadows website:
https://moormeadows.org.uk/information/ ... -a-meadow/
In the para What’s your soil and the land characteristics? She warns you may have to cut for 5 years if your soil is rich in nitrogen and phosphates, before even thinking about wild flowers..
In the para
If the grassland hasn’t been grazed or mown, or is tussocky, weedy or is becoming invaded by bramble or bracken: she recommends herbicide.

Hannah, if your organic efforts so far aren't working, and you choose not to use strong herbicide, then may be you will have to resign yourself to years of regular cutting, - forget the hay and introducing any flowers for a few years, as you would be better cutting those weeds really short every month, and, after all that, only once the weeds have gone, only then think about hay and a slow natural regeneration of wild flowers.

If the cutting would be too much to be managed with a scythe, then perhaps invest in your own tractor and topper/flail mower collector or use the services of an agricultural contractor.

The only sure way to remove docks which I've found is to hand dig the whole of the root ball in the wet season, so the roots don't snap. Yes, it's pretty grim. Spraying can sometimes kill, often it kills some of the root,and the remainder regenerates the next year, so when you dig it up, you can find half the root blackened, and half live. Digging doesn't work on creeping thistle - see the refs below.

The only alternative to herbicide, digging or cutting, I can think of, is covering the worst areas with light-excluding black plastic, silage wrap, for a couple of years, if you have the space to exclude the horses, but you would still have the weed seed reservoir in the soil.

I think it could be a waste of time and money reseeding before you get rid of the weeds.

If you reseed at any stage by harrowing or opening the sward up in some other way, you will be disturbing the soil and allowing light to it, and your weed seeds will germinate and you might be back to square one.. You'd be far better off not disturbing the soil, and allowing natural regeneration.

I accept that your horses will disturb the soil, so do all you can to minimise this, keep them unshod when this fits with their use, keep your stocking level low, and keep them away from the wet areas. The only seeding I do suggest, as I said in my email, is that you put sweet vernal grass or some other fine grass seed on the bare earth disturbed by the horses, so that desirable seed might beat the weeds' seeds in the germination race.

Yarrow, knapweed, and short plants such as celandine, speedwell, alchemilla, lesser stichwort, bugle and betony will probably naturally colonise early if they are not already there. They will survive cutting. They just won't flower whilst you are cutting. They will bulk up and spread vegetatively. When eventually you do cease regular cutting, you will be very pleased by the flowers that appear.

As you are an ecologist, I'm sure you are already well aware of all the information behind the references below, so I just mention them for anyone else:

the Plantlife Meadows Hub
https://meadows.plantlife.org.uk/making ... ur-meadow/

the Moor Meadows Help and Information pages,
https://moormeadows.org.uk/information/

the Magnificent Meadows website
http://www.magnificentmeadows.org.uk/

and the Grazing Animals Project https://www.rbst.org.uk/gap-information,

the problem species page on this website.

In particular: Rush, Nettle and Dock Control in Grassland
http://www.magnificentmeadows.org.uk/as ... LATEST.pdf

and
When to spray
https://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/step-st ... eeds-grass

[NigelPemberton]

Hi Hannah

You appear to have a job on your hands from what you've written.
Are you a member of your local Wildlife Trust "North Wales"?
As a Wildlife Trust member myself, when we moved to West Devon from Kent in 2017 I contacted my local Wildlife Trust for advice on how best to turn a 2 acre field into a traditional hay meadow and they were very helpful, even to the point of sending someone along to take a look and come up with a plan.
This would be my best advice as they will know your local conditions and will be able to answer all of your questions.

And good luck with the project.

Regards
Nigel

[Jane W]

GOATS!!

I've been noticing a lot of goats being used here for cropping down anything from scrub to lawns. Neighbours here have them instead of lawnmowers it seems.
I only know what I've heard locally and looked up on the internet...so I'm no expert...you need to do your own research...but...just putting the idea out there...they eat dock evidently, and thistle and bramble and nettle. Almost anything in fact.
They don't need to be sheared...are healthy and tough...can give milk/cheese.
Downsides are they are good at escaping...but then so are sheep and horses I guess.

Also noticed that horses will eat thistle and nettles if they're cut and left to soften. Any help for getting rid of too many of these? Scything down the worst patches and letting the horses at them?

[hannahv]

hi Jane,
Thank you. That’s a good way to think of it. It would need a bit of planning, but it’s worth thinking seriously about. Maybe I’m trying to force a square peg into a round hole so to speak!
I was very excited to find quite a big patch of red clover this year!
Nettles and docks are not ideal in hay but my fatties don’t need high quality hay so I’m happy just picking docks out if needed.

Hi Hannah
I have a similar size of pasture, and when we arrived here about 5 years ago, there was virtually not a single nettle or dock here.
Since then, male visitors, not being bothered to return to the house for a loo, have 'watered' (trying to be polite here!) certain areas.
I have been amazed at how quickly nettle has colonized these patches, seemingly from nowhere.
Obviously, horses will be passing a great deal of this nitrogen rich 'water' every day, and that will be changing the soil nutrient levels to favour certain wild plants. Their droppings doing something similar, but for different plants. Every time I've seen really stunning buttercup fields in the past, I've noticed they have horses in them...so a definite link there I would say!
I suppose I take a rather fatalistic view of this. If your soil ( its nutrient make up etc) and conditions ( weather, animals etc) favour certain types of wild plants, I can't see that any kind of herbicides will change that.
Its not changing the underlying conditions is it?
Surely the plants really suited to the conditions will eventually come back even if you spray and re-seed?
I have no answers and don't have animals on my land, but what I've done to try and favour biodiversity is to have diversity! Sorry if that sounds daft!
What I mean is that I treat different areas differently. Some have spring flowers so I cut them early, others I cut in august, others not until the end of winter, others not at all. Some I leave cuttings to rot in, others I remove it.
Would it be possible to divide up your fields somehow? I know this isn't easy with livestock, but could it be done?
In this way you could cut some bits early ( with the plants you say you have sounds like you would also have good conditions for lovely spring heroes like dandelion and red clover). If each section was a half acre or so, you could scythe or use mower with cuttings collection, or put the horses in there in April/May. Wouldn't be too big. Keep the horses off one bit to see what happens. Maybe even spray and re-seed one bit to see how you feel about it...
...although I have never used any herbicides on my pastures, only cutting at different times. Its far from perfect, but I couldn't be more thrilled with the biodiversity...its astonishing and getting better every year.
The bulk you could still cut for hay...I'm assuming here that the nettles, docks etc make good hay and there's no problem there?

[hannahv]

Thanks Amy, that’s very useful. Lots of food for thought and maybe I need to manage my expectations.

I’m so sorry I hadn’t seen your email but just found it in my spam folder. I’ll digest and reply there as well.

Tussocks, brambles and bracken sounds just like my land! Oh no!

I’m wondering about changing the horse management to more of a rotation, which would be like cutting different parts of the field at different times and should mean less scything for me. I would buy a small tractor or quad but my land is so steep I’m worried about accidents

Thanks for your thoughts about yellow rattle. That sounds good. And thanks for all the links. They’re very useful!

Hannah
I sent you an email about ten days ago answering some of your questions - I mentioned agricultural contractors, vernalisation, yellow rattle.
.
In addition to what I said there -

I spoke with an organic farmer today - he cuts his docks regularly and sheep grazing helps.

My meadow has regenerated well without yellow rattle. Yellow rattle speeds up the process.

I wouldn't worry about the topping of yellow rattle over much. The point surely, is that the rattle as it grows, parasitises the grasses (and some other plants) weakening them and eventually creating small bare patches. So the rattle will have the desired effect during its growing season from March to whenever you top, or until it seeds, whichever is the sooner; the fact that you may have to reseed the rattle in the autumn, because the topping took place before seeding, is secondary.

I've been told by a well qualified and experienced farmer friend that knapweed heats up hay. That might rule out the normal seed mixes, though you can buy individual species. I suggest you ask your local farm sales outlet or a neighbouring farmer for further advice. Perhaps someone here will comment further.

See Sue Everett's article on the Moor Meadows website:
https://moormeadows.org.uk/information/ ... -a-meadow/
In the para What’s your soil and the land characteristics? She warns you may have to cut for 5 years if your soil is rich in nitrogen and phosphates, before even thinking about wild flowers..
In the para
If the grassland hasn’t been grazed or mown, or is tussocky, weedy or is becoming invaded by bramble or bracken: she recommends herbicide.

Hannah, if your organic efforts so far aren't working, and you choose not to use strong herbicide, then may be you will have to resign yourself to years of regular cutting, - forget the hay and introducing any flowers for a few years, as you would be better cutting those weeds really short every month, and, after all that, only once the weeds have gone, only then think about hay and a slow natural regeneration of wild flowers.

If the cutting would be too much to be managed with a scythe, then perhaps invest in your own tractor and topper/flail mower collector or use the services of an agricultural contractor.

The only sure way to remove docks which I've found is to hand dig the whole of the root ball in the wet season, so the roots don't snap. Yes, it's pretty grim. Spraying can sometimes kill, often it kills some of the root,and the remainder regenerates the next year, so when you dig it up, you can find half the root blackened, and half live. Digging doesn't work on creeping thistle - see the refs below.

The only alternative to herbicide, digging or cutting, I can think of, is covering the worst areas with light-excluding black plastic, silage wrap, for a couple of years, if you have the space to exclude the horses, but you would still have the weed seed reservoir in the soil.

I think it could be a waste of time and money reseeding before you get rid of the weeds.

If you reseed at any stage by harrowing or opening the sward up in some other way, you will be disturbing the soil and allowing light to it, and your weed seeds will germinate and you might be back to square one.. You'd be far better off not disturbing the soil, and allowing natural regeneration.

I accept that your horses will disturb the soil, so do all you can to minimise this, keep them unshod when this fits with their use, keep your stocking level low, and keep them away from the wet areas. The only seeding I do suggest, as I said in my email, is that you put sweet vernal grass or some other fine grass seed on the bare earth disturbed by the horses, so that desirable seed might beat the weeds' seeds in the germination race.

Yarrow, knapweed, and short plants such as celandine, speedwell, alchemilla, lesser stichwort, bugle and betony will probably naturally colonise early if they are not already there. They will survive cutting. They just won't flower whilst you are cutting. They will bulk up and spread vegetatively. When eventually you do cease regular cutting, you will be very pleased by the flowers that appear.

As you are an ecologist, I'm sure you are already well aware of all the information behind the references below, so I just mention them for anyone else:

the Plantlife Meadows Hub
https://meadows.plantlife.org.uk/making ... ur-meadow/

the Moor Meadows Help and Information pages,
https://moormeadows.org.uk/information/

the Magnificent Meadows website
http://www.magnificentmeadows.org.uk/

and the Grazing Animals Project https://www.rbst.org.uk/gap-information,

the problem species page on this website.

In particular: Rush, Nettle and Dock Control in Grassland
http://www.magnificentmeadows.org.uk/as ... LATEST.pdf

and
When to spray
https://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/step-st ... eeds-grass

[hannahv]

thanks Nigel. Yes I am a member and hadn’t thought of asking them for advice. I didn’t realise they could help in that way. I’ll get in touch with them.

Yes it sounds like more work than I had realised!

Hi Hannah

You appear to have a job on your hands from what you've written.
Are you a member of your local Wildlife Trust "North Wales"?
As a Wildlife Trust member myself, when we moved to West Devon from Kent in 2017 I contacted my local Wildlife Trust for advice on how best to turn a 2 acre field into a traditional hay meadow and they were very helpful, even to the point of sending someone along to take a look and come up with a plan.
This would be my best advice as they will know your local conditions and will be able to answer all of your questions.

And good luck with the project.

Regards
Nigel