West End Parish Council Meadows trial

[bazwepc]

Hi Guys
I am new to this forum and would welcome some advice. I am a new councillor in the parish of West End (Eastleigh) and am trying to educate myself about creating some trial wildflower meadows in the Parish.
The council has already left some areas un-mowed to let the grass grow tall but think that is all you need to do to create a wildflower meadow. The more I research this the more complicated it seems!
I need to put a proposal forward as to how we can properly create these areas and what equipment we need.
A power scythe and some kind of hay rake (tractor pulled?) to gather grass and a removal system for this cut grass seems the minimum. Hiring the equipment would seem the way to go initially. I would like to get some community involvement also.
Any help and advise would be much appreciated

[Amy]

Bumping for you, bazwepc.

In the meantime, you might find these topics of some use:

A cross ref to invaluable info from Plantlife
Before you start:
viewtopic.php?f=74&t=463

and

Cutting and baling kit summary by Tracey Hamston
viewtopic.php?p=607#p607

If it takes too long for someone to answer you here, try the email exchange, and the facebook group. Both usually bring quicker responses.

[Jane W]

Hi there. I have started learning about this only in the last 10 years, and also found that it can seem complicated at first...and, let's be honest, there are always some people out there who are TRYING to complicate things ( usually to sell us something!).
I would make an appeal to keep things simple though, if it's possible.

The simplest option that I can see is that you scythe the area/s once, (or twice if you think its really necessary) a year, and remove the cuttings.
This is how our traditional hay meadows have been managed for hundreds (maybe thousands) of years and the result is the wonderful meadows that were now trying to preserve or replicate.
It was as simple as that. People cut and baled by hand, with scythes or simple tools, and this worked for hundreds of years. Any complications?
Plants which made the hay unpalatable or poisonous were probably pulled out before they set seed.
Animals may be grazed in the autumn, on the regrowth after scything, if there is any, so that the grass is still low in spring. ( we can replicate this with a second scything in spring if necessary)

Some things are different if your priority is biodiversity, not hay.
One is that you can leave the flowers that may be poisonous or unpalatable etc. The other is that you can cut later if you need to. The massive time pressure to get the hay in while the sun shines is removed!

There are some arguments that cutting very late, even into Feb or march may let more nutrients be taken back into the soil. In this way it takes longer to reduce soil fertility.
This may be true, I haven't seen the science, but it makes some sense. Nonetheless, if you're not in a rush it may not matter too much.

Trustworthy experts tell us that it can take many many years to reach the equilibrium that you're happy with, and so, patience is always mentioned as one of THE most important ingredients by those who've been there before us.

However, the journey is great, full of new species spotted every year and much enjoyment, and trying to skip this long process and leap immediately to a 'perfect' meadow would be to entirely miss the point.

If you can interest your local community in scything, and get one or more small groups who are keen it would be a wonderful achievement.
You could have scything days when everyone works together...(followed by a picnic or pub lunch funded by the money you've saved on machinery and petrol?)
Or, once people know what needs to be done...just allowing people to turn up whenever it suits them to do some solitary scything, will suit some people very well.

Jobs divided up and people given some responsibility? A species documenter ( no more perfect job for a young person between 8 and 17!!) Who notes the species present and does research on them, to share with other members of the group.

Learning days to teach scything... combined with cutting days on a fairly regular basis?
(I scythe every day but was surprised how much I benefited from a recent scything workshop...I'd picked up loads of bad habits.)

How to sell it? Well the obvious is the biodiversity, carbon neutral, wonderful for local wildlife angle, and all those things are very true.
(As an aside: I cannot tell you how many frogs, toads and fire salamanders I pick up off the ground as I scythe, which would simply be pulverised by a machine, and that's in the winter..in the summer, slow worms also are heavily impacted by machines, a careful scyther is slow enough that they can escape)
But also...what about the health benefits. Half and hour of scything and you realise what a wonderful exercise it is.
Out in the fresh air...just what were being told we need to see off illnesses from Alzheimer's to depression to everything else almost!
Cancel that expensive gym subscription and get a great physique by doing something useful and rewarding!

All ages can do it and if you learn properly, (there shouldn't be painful results as it is a really body friendly activity)
I'm pretty much an old lady, and I was scything this summer with my 10 year old relatives.
Also you can scythe at any time of year, and in small patches...ideal if you really want to try lots of different cutting times or land management approaches....stuff has been said on this forum already about this ( thread: 'newbie needing advice').

Incentives...apart from those mentioned (ie caring for wildlife, caring for the planet, fun social activity, health benefits,mental health benefits, historical and cultural interest ( farming or land management history) tool making or repairing or sharpening)...working in peace without the drone of engines, and wow, there's a lot to be said for that. The early morning mist in a field as thrushes fly overhead....nothing like it.
well, last but not least, the incentive of money! I know you probably can't pay people without getting into a world of complications, but you could cover costs ( petrol) etc provide lunch or dinner, or, charge for the scything workshops, and then refund the money when people have done a certain amount of work in return.
Think how much you stand to save in petrol and machinery costs...!

Anyhow, if you've read this far, thank you for indulging me!...as you can tell, I'm a fan of this simple and time tested method.
There are many reasons why its not possible for many people of course, time pressure and too large an area of land being the obvious ones, as well as just not being something some are interested in.
I'm only mentioning it because it would be a terrible shame to overlook the obvious...especially if you want the community involved.


If humans can't do it you need a machine probably. I know little about that. Plenty of info on this site about that, but, yes, 2 stages, one to cut, one to collect. There are machines available that do both but I think they're really expensive.

[jackieandrade]

Another suggestion for getting youngsters involved is to make small batches of hay for their pets. A few bin liners full lasts a guinea pig months.

[bazwepc]

Hi there. I have started learning about this only in the last 10 years, and also found that it can seem complicated at first...and, let's be honest, there are always some people out there who are TRYING to complicate things ( usually to sell us something!).
I would make an appeal to keep things simple though, if it's possible.

The simplest option that I can see is that you scythe the area/s once, (or twice if you think its really necessary) a year, and remove the cuttings.
This is how our traditional hay meadows have been managed for hundreds (maybe thousands) of years and the result is the wonderful meadows that were now trying to preserve or replicate.
It was as simple as that. People cut and baled by hand, with scythes or simple tools, and this worked for hundreds of years. Any complications?
Plants which made the hay unpalatable or poisonous were probably pulled out before they set seed.
Animals may be grazed in the autumn, on the regrowth after scything, if there is any, so that the grass is still low in spring. ( we can replicate this with a second scything in spring if necessary)

Some things are different if your priority is biodiversity, not hay.
One is that you can leave the flowers that may be poisonous or unpalatable etc. The other is that you can cut later if you need to. The massive time pressure to get the hay in while the sun shines is removed!

There are some arguments that cutting very late, even into Feb or march may let more nutrients be taken back into the soil. In this way it takes longer to reduce soil fertility.
This may be true, I haven't seen the science, but it makes some sense. Nonetheless, if you're not in a rush it may not matter too much.

Trustworthy experts tell us that it can take many many years to reach the equilibrium that you're happy with, and so, patience is always mentioned as one of THE most important ingredients by those who've been there before us.

However, the journey is great, full of new species spotted every year and much enjoyment, and trying to skip this long process and leap immediately to a 'perfect' meadow would be to entirely miss the point.

If you can interest your local community in scything, and get one or more small groups who are keen it would be a wonderful achievement.
You could have scything days when everyone works together...(followed by a picnic or pub lunch funded by the money you've saved on machinery and petrol?)
Or, once people know what needs to be done...just allowing people to turn up whenever it suits them to do some solitary scything, will suit some people very well.

Jobs divided up and people given some responsibility? A species documenter ( no more perfect job for a young person between 8 and 17!!) Who notes the species present and does research on them, to share with other members of the group.

Learning days to teach scything... combined with cutting days on a fairly regular basis?
(I scythe every day but was surprised how much I benefited from a recent scything workshop...I'd picked up loads of bad habits.)

How to sell it? Well the obvious is the biodiversity, carbon neutral, wonderful for local wildlife angle, and all those things are very true.
(As an aside: I cannot tell you how many frogs, toads and fire salamanders I pick up off the ground as I scythe, which would simply be pulverised by a machine, and that's in the winter..in the summer, slow worms also are heavily impacted by machines, a careful scyther is slow enough that they can escape)
But also...what about the health benefits. Half and hour of scything and you realise what a wonderful exercise it is.
Out in the fresh air...just what were being told we need to see off illnesses from Alzheimer's to depression to everything else almost!
Cancel that expensive gym subscription and get a great physique by doing something useful and rewarding!

All ages can do it and if you learn properly, (there shouldn't be painful results as it is a really body friendly activity)
I'm pretty much an old lady, and I was scything this summer with my 10 year old relatives.
Also you can scythe at any time of year, and in small patches...ideal if you really want to try lots of different cutting times or land management approaches....stuff has been said on this forum already about this ( thread: 'newbie needing advice').

Incentives...apart from those mentioned (ie caring for wildlife, caring for the planet, fun social activity, health benefits,mental health benefits, historical and cultural interest ( farming or land management history) tool making or repairing or sharpening)...working in peace without the drone of engines, and wow, there's a lot to be said for that. The early morning mist in a field as thrushes fly overhead....nothing like it.
well, last but not least, the incentive of money! I know you probably can't pay people without getting into a world of complications, but you could cover costs ( petrol) etc provide lunch or dinner, or, charge for the scything workshops, and then refund the money when people have done a certain amount of work in return.
Think how much you stand to save in petrol and machinery costs...!

Anyhow, if you've read this far, thank you for indulging me!...as you can tell, I'm a fan of this simple and time tested method.
There are many reasons why its not possible for many people of course, time pressure and too large an area of land being the obvious ones, as well as just not being something some are interested in.
I'm only mentioning it because it would be a terrible shame to overlook the obvious...especially if you want the community involved.


If humans can't do it you need a machine probably. I know little about that. Plenty of info on this site about that, but, yes, 2 stages, one to cut, one to collect. There are machines available that do both but I think they're really expensive.

Thank you so much for this information it will be invaluable to me in trying to get some meadow projects underway.

[Donna Cox]

This talk for Moor Meadows about managing wildlife friendly verges maybe of interest too - great speakers - national road verge specialist Dr Kate Petty from Plantlife and Leo Gubert, senior ecologist Highways England, South West. You can watch it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b4D5aTxnkU

[Malcolm Baldwin]

Hello,

I am part of the biodiversity group for Staverton parish. We have been trying to establish some wildflower patches on the verges in the parish with verying degrees of success.

I have written a guide to growig wildflowers which might be useful to you but it seems this reply service will not let me attach it. If you think it might be useful I will send it, but I need an ordinary email address so that it can be attached. My email address is:

malcbaldwin@gmail.com

Best wishes - Malcolm Baldwin.

PS it may be attached but I'm not certain!

[bazwepc]

Thanks for the info

The attachment was there
Much appreciated

Barry